NeroVideo, - incorrect alignment of 4:3 media in the display area

But first of all to say, that is not a bug but the result of a defective concept solution of a particular SW function (details to see here http://forum.my.nero.com/index.php?sh...). This deficiency exists since Nero 10 and is not fixed until today. It was not however in NeroVision versions before 10.

4:3-Media (both photos and videos, created by band material, with the exception of Digital8 material) are compressed horizontally when inserting in the display area (a circle will distorted to a vertical ellipse) and black bars with a width of about 5 pixels are added to the sides. They are part of the image content and can interfere so animated transition effects (see screenshot). This lack is not even noticed from most users, because e.g. move effects have vertical (up/down) as default setting for the direction of motion.

There is a possibility of correction (see at the bottom of the screenshot). You must stretch the image by customizing the value for the X-axis. Man, can that apply, where it is necessary, only on a single slide clip or also on a number of clips, which one has summarized to a sequence (marked). But in and of itself, this is an unnecessary hassle, which can be more or less large. And besides, it has implications for the encoding time, because these parts need to be re-rendered.

I recommend therefore, if you have a mix of the aspect ratios in a 16:9-project, to prepare the media with different aspect ratios (in subprojects to save for later re-use) separately and then to transmit in the overall project.

This deficiency exists only in Nero SW, but not in other products, such as e.g. Windows life Movie Maker (WLMM), Adobe products etc. You can, and that would be an alternative to the above mentioned solution proposal, first create a WLMM project and this then convert into a Nero project. But either way, it's unnecessary effort that for the users. For this reason, Nero must now finally rectify the defect. A solution is possible, - other SW manufacturers can that too.
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    • Yes you are right. Also with Nero templates exist this problem (in originals and copies, with 4:3 and 16:9 aspect ratio. It seems that they themselves have the problem not in the handle.
      But this problem exists now more then 2 years and I wonder therefore why only few few users noticed that. It seems that the majority of users the possibilities offered by NV, not uses, such as Keyframing, which really was an important innovation in the SW. Anyway, for me, who was working from Nero 6 on with NeroVision, it is frustrating.
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  • hg-dude:
    In reply to your post here, I am not sure what it is that you want me to do at this point. I have duplicated all of the aspect ratio deficiencies of Nero 12 in Nero 2014.

    Here's a link to a simple demo

    Here's a more complex demo"

    The easiest way that I have found to demonstrate the "black bars" is to apply the Stylize | Duplicate effect. It couldn't be more obvious.

    The black bars appear for 4:3 or 16:9 sample pictures and for the 16:9 sample video. The black bars do not appear for the sample video on 4:3 movie projects but that's because the sample video is not 4:3. Using a 4:3 video from my Kodak results in black bars.

    All of this and more has been reported in the old forum, here, and to Tech Support via email.

    What more can I do?
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  • I’m amused
    1
    Thank you very much. Yes, you have confirmed that the black bars are still present in 2014 (others also). But because new here were a discussion about the new tilt-shift effect, I was interest if these black bar also affect this effect. The black bar are very disturbing in horizontal shift/wipe effects and the blurr in this effect is somethng like shift resp. wiping, - like with a cloth. I assume, if the black bars have influence, they are also blurred, means, they are displayed as darker areas.

    Anyway, it's not very important for me, because I'm definitely not interested in 2014, although I got a special offer today "Simplify your life with Nero Platinum 2014".

    It sounds like a joke

    Have a pleasant weekend.

    Hans-Gerhard
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  • Both pictures are screenshots of the preview window on the video edit screen while editing a 4:3 project. I placed the Nero sample video on the timeline along with a short clip from my camera. Then, I applied a linear Tilt Shift Effect; the lines are used for adjustments. The region can be dragged around, expanded, or rotated. There are also oval regions. I have included MediaInfo below for the imported files.


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  • 1
    that's interesting. Normally the Nero example videos fit correctly in the display area, if you import the the example video with the video mode corresponding with your presettings (in your case I assume NTSC). So I can me explain the black bars above only with that, you have imported the example for PAL in the upper project.

    Btw, some new digital cameras record photos in the 35 mm film format with an AR of 3:2 (!). if you import such images into a PAL 4:3 project, you get black bars on top and bottom, in a NTSC project they correct fit..

    Interesting is, how the WLMM is dealing with this aspect ratio. If you import 3:2 media into a PAL 4:3 project there are small parts are cutted off at the sides, in a 16:9 project small parts at top and bottom.
    In the analogue NTSC projects with 4:3 settings the complete image is shown in the display area, in a 16:9 projects is the same as above but the high of the parts which are cut off is a kittle bit greater.
    It would be nice NeroVideo would have also such an automatic fit algorithm.
    Anyway, dealing with AR can be a sophisticated business.
    Ty again for your effort.

    But I am annoyed, still always no answer from Nero to this post !!!

    I will send an email now. Because one thing is clear, the defect still always exist also in Nero 2014 !
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  • The NTSC "4:3" Nero sample has a DAR of 3:2 or 1.5 and an assumed PAR of 0.90909.

    The Video Edit bitmap apparently has an aspect ratio of 640:469 or 1.365 (Take a snapshot).

    Both of my cameras produce videos with an aspect ratio of 640:480 or 1.333.

    So, the bitmap fits a 720:528 (~1.364) picture without distorting it (as I have demonstrated numerous times before).

    If the sample video is used, adjusting for a PAR of 0.90909, it has a DAR of 720x0.90909 : 480 or ~1.36, also a "perfect" fit to the bitmap. (I'm not sure this is right, but "it works".

    If a true 4:3 video is used, it has a low aspect ratio wrt the bitmap and when scaled to fit vertically, black vertical bars result since its width is 1.333 * height (< 1.36). The result is that the picture is about 15 pixels too narrow after scaling (~625 vs 640).

    Now, everything changes if you use Custom Movie Options, namely 640x480. Give that a try!



    Here's a 960x638 picture from my son's camera (via Facebook):



    Now, using a custom frame size and duplicating in Nero 2014 Video (no black bars):

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  • I live in a PAL region (CH) therefore all by myself created/recorded media are in PAL.
    Only these 4:3 videos which I have recorded and captured (in MPEG-2 format) from my Digital8 camera fit correctly in the display area. Those which were recorded with my other cameras (VHS, Video8, Hi8 and DV-Camcorder) have more or less wide bars at the sides. But contrary to the Photos recorded with my digital photo cameras, I must only zoom them (sometimes also centering is necessary) for correcting the alignment in the display area.
    Photos I must stretch in the width because they are shrinked after import. When I convert the AR of the photos to 4.1:3 (e.g. with Photoshop) they are aligned correctly.

    Btw, when I convert a WLMM project into a NV project I have to correct the alignment same as with photos by stretching, but the effects created in WLMM are correct.

    I can live with it, because I know, what I have to do. But other users may be unsure about what happens and search for the reason on wrong places.

    Although I will send again an email about this issue to Nero, I don't expect that they remove, Based on my previous experience I must assume, that they are not able for that or not want.

    I think, we can close this post.

    Omega Tester, I have just seen this in your other post
    "I am posting here before sending an email to Tech Support. I have a special form of ESP that allows me to predict the TS response!"
    So can you also send an email about this issue. Perhaps you have more succes then I.
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  • I've made a video using the Stylize Duplicate Video Effect and Slide Out transitions. Note that the vertical bars are not there. I used a custom frame of 720x544 (720x540 is not available).
    If this type of thing is done, many output formats have no possibility of using a frame of 720x544 (or 540) so that it's a choice of vertical bars or 640x480. But, the effects all work since they have already been embedded - any back bars are outside of the action and not very noticeable.

    • As I said once before, its no problem in NTSC mode if you use 4:3 media, which are created under NTSC mode resp. you used the NTSC specific templates. The problem exists only under PAL

      Btw, there exists another problem in NeroVideo of Nero 12. If you import a NTSC formatted 4:3 video into a PAL (!) project this video is correct aligned in the display area. But if you then add the same video under "Edit video" to the timeline, it has black bars on all sides. If you create a NTSC project on the same way, its ok. This means, you have to create a NTSC project for editing and convert it to PAL before burning or export.

      What have you planned now to do ?

      But now finish with my working on the forum. I would like to enjoy this beautiful sunday afternoon. Have a pleasent day.
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  • hg-dude:
    In response to, "What have you planned now to do ?", I am presenting a pictorial that I think demonstrates that these aspect ratio issues are common to 4:3 and 16:9 in the PAL format. Here it comes:

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  • Hi, do you know 'overscan'? In my understanding, Nero is doing the correct thing.
    For 720x480, DAR (display aspect ratio) 4:3, the PAR(pixel aspect ratio) is 10:11, and the actual display region is 704x480.

    There are 720 samples in one scan line. But due to the technical limitation in old time, not all samples can be displayed perfect in TV set. The actual visible samples per scan line are 704. Eight samples in each side are ignored without content to make sure all TV sets can show the entire image. This adjusting can be called overscan.

    Adobe Premiere Element 8 also handles overscan like what Nero does.

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  • 1
    It is unbelievable. Once again someone wants me (still a newbie!) give an explanation that the problem should have "natural" causes. Absolute nonsense! The problem exists since Nero 10, but not in the Nero prior versions or in other products such as Windows Live Movie Maker, Sonic MyDVD, EditDV (forerunner of Adobe Premiere) and in Adobe Premiere itself. None of these products adds black bars to the image content of 4:3 media, which has a disruptive effect in transition effects, as shown above.
    There is definitely a lack or rather a bug, which Nero apparently does not want or is not able to solve and is therefore unacceptable for me. And my mind can not be changed by steadily new explanations, as many as they will be because this opinion is finally based on many years of experience in DV mastering !

    The topic is closed for me, as well as my participation in this forum, because it has provided not the hoped-for improvements over the old forums. On the contrary, here are more and more people involved, who apparently lacking the necessary expertise. So why should I deal furthermore with such pointless discussions.
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  • 1
    machhsf:

    As they say, the proof is in the pudding! I have tried the Adobe trial, but, unfortunately, it doesn't have the flexibility to make the demonstration I wanted to put here. So, since you apparently do have the full program, I would simply ask that you create a 4:3 project, place the 720x540 picture provided here onto the timeline, and then apply Adobe's "Replicate" effect to that picture. As you can see from the above, when using Nero Video's equivalent "Duplicate" effect, vertical black bars appear between the duplicated pictures. Please take a moment and provide a screenshot showing vertical black bars between the "replicated" pictures in Adobe.

    As hg-dude has pointed out repeatedly, there is a design flaw in Nero Video that results in the vertical bars in this example and in transitions.

    Uh, also, I am somewhat familiar with, but not an expert on "overscan." Are you familiar with the "Export" function?



    For extra enjoyment, here's a 16:9 picture if you wish to provide evidence that Adobe also produces vertical bars when it is replicated in an Adobe 16:9 project as in a Nero project.

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  • The belows are screenshots from Adobe Premiere Element 8.0.

    720x576 4:3 project


    720x576 16:9 project




    I quite doubt you guys really ever ran Premiere Element!
    • You didn't understand the problem and I think you have never worked with NeroVideo.

      In the example you show here, the resolution of the imported medium is 720x540 and is fitted in a display area of 720x576. So automatically black bars are shown at the sides. This is normal and correct. What else should APE do ?
      If you would import a video in TV Standard format (720x576 PAL, 720x480 NTSC), I am sure, you wouldn't have black bars:

      But just exactly this is not the case in NeroVideo (since Nero 10 !). Media of TV Standard format are horizontally shrinked in the width and black bars are added to the picture content. This is definitely a deficiency and the reasons, why Nero want not solve, are known.

      End of commentig !
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  • machshf:
    Thanks for taking the time to post the images. Tis true for me: " I quite doubt you guys really ever ran Premiere Element!".

    To me, the Adobe is even worse. Where have the red borders gone?

    Three cases follow that I think illustrate the issue:

    1. The Nero sample video which is in NTSC format, fits the "screen" and is properly duplicated. (Over-scan has picture content).



    2. A Kodak camera 4:3 output (640x480) that does not properly fit the "screen" and is incorrectly duplicated in that "non-content" areas of the screen are duplicated resulting in a black vertical bar in the center. Since "non-content" areas are included in the duplication, I would say there is a design problem, apparently shared by Adobe.



    3. My 720x540 image fit to a custom 720x544 (540 not available?) "screen" and "properly" duplicated. This was exported as a 720x544 WMV file and then imported and placed on the timeline where black vertical bars can be seen in the "overscan" regions. Using this method eliminates the duplication issue and other transition effects issues.

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    • I think you can be happy now, that you didn't get this job ;-(o)
    • That depends. ;-)
      Maybe some processes were a bit more transparent, and some devs would ride a pony only. :-P
      No further comment! ;-(o)
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